Naxx 06 March 09

Subject: Naxx 06 March 09 Fri Mar 06, 2009 8:43 pm

First off I would like to apologise for leaving the raid group prematurely. I will not, however, stand by and continue to run with people spouting uninformed crap about a subject of which they clearly have no knowledge and in doing so offend and upset both Jess and myself over the hard work that we have put into that spec and the carefuly chosen gear that Estora wears.

Here's the lowdown so that we can hopefuly quel the myth about 'poor gear' and 'not specced right' to rest once and for all. If anyone wants more information on gearing druids for tanking then please feel free to ask and I will explain such things as the difference between tanking and DPS leather, what stats a druid needs, what stats a druid doesn't need, why druids need high attack power, what talents have the greatest impact and which ones can be worked around etc.

Lets put some tanks in a fight with a made-up mob for a direct comparisson. Stats are taken as an unbuffed snapshot in their tanking gear / form (be aware that Armory + BeImba only show the correct information when the player logs off in bear form, so unless you know bear dynamics I suggest you don't try to assess someone's stats from a night elf snapshot). Both tanks are presumed to be in a melee fight (in practice over 85% of damage taken by tanks is melee therefore most people build to these ends).

Jess's druid:

24 000 health
26.5% dodge
0.5% chance to be missed from defense
67.0% armour

Dodge + Missed = 27% therefore 73% chance to be struck. For that 73% damage is mitigated by armour of 67% meaning that 33% damge is taken. 73% x 33% = 24% damage received overall.
What this means in practice is that with no heals or special abilities against a mob dealing 5k dps, Jess's druid would live for about 20 seconds.

Ben's DK:

20 000 health
13% parry
17% dodge
3% chance to be missed from talents
4% chance to be missed from defense
50% armour

Dodge + Parry + Missed = 37% therefore 63% chance to be struck. For that 63% damage is mitigated by armour of 50% meaning that 50% damage is taken. 63% x 50% = 31% damage received overall.
In the same situation as above, Ben's DK would live for about 12 seconds.

Coincidentally I worked out Paul's time to live and it is a massive 44 seconds, so both of the above people have a lot of work to do before they are even close to being as good a tank as him. Jess should achieve this with better gear and dual-spec in the next patch. Ben will struggle because DKs are not designed for high damage mitigation. Sorry but that's the price you pay for starting at level 55.

Tanking is not about gear or talents. It is about how long you can live, how easy you are to heal and whether you can hold the threat. Going in to the same raid with the same people I would still choose to put Jess as MT and Ben as OT again because she lives for longer and needs less healing wheras he can spike threat on multiple targets and keep everyone else free to do their jobs unmolested. Now it's a shame that Ben pulled Acotar out of the guild over this affront to his e-peen but I stand by my well informed decision and if people don't like the straight up truth then they are probably better off elsewhere anyway.

I would like this to be the last occurence of automatically scapegoating the blame onto Jess when things start to go wrong. There is duck-all wrong with that character's spec or gear apart from the usual and gradual improvements that we all make when better items drop. Presumption to blame what you don't understand is ignorant and insulting to those that do. Nobody deserves that kind of constant crap when they are only here for fun and the enjoyment of the game.

Posts : 5 Join date : 2009-01-29

I have done my own calculations and i pretty much came with the same numbers as you did, BUT you havent taken in account the different migitation skills both classes have in the form of cooldown sklls. When you compare the survival skill, also called "oh, shit!" buttons the difference between jess and bens DK damage income narrows down by a whopping 33%.
I'm sure you've put a lot of thought in picking gear for estora but some of the gear just isnt the best in slot pre-raid or its just downright bad. I'd suggest looking at wowindsider shifting perspectives guide on gearing your bear druid. For example the rings on Estora are subpar and unacceptable seeing as there are a lot better rings really easy to get by just doing heroics. With good rings, the essence of gosamer as a a replacement and just putting enchants on the unenchanted gear pieces. I managed to add about 1k stamina. THat is a massive increase in survivability.

Onto the hybrid discussion. But do note that you are gimping yourself when you try to be able to do both aspects. The spec she does have now misses key talents as mangle, protector of the pack, leader of the pack and infected wounds which all help massively in tanking.
THe trouble with hybrid specs is that you have to sacrifice points which can help you perform one role so you can use the other role on a mediocre level. You think you are flexible but especially in situations where you are not swapping roles you are just a gimped version of a tank/healer. I suggest if you want to be able to perform multiple roles you should just respec when neccecary. 50g is very easy to make and should be no excuse for not respeccing.

so in the end there is the choice: Do i want to be unique or do i want to be able to perform my role to the fullest?

Posts : 5 Join date : 2009-01-29

I do want to add though, that as a off-tank these rules are less strict and are hybrids more viable.

Subject: Re: Naxx 06 March 09 Sat Mar 07, 2009 7:11 am

The only really good tanking talent that Jess is missing is Protector of the Pack, which would decrease her damage income from 24% to 21%, adding an extra 2 seconds to live. The other talents listed are DPS(TPS) related and can therefore be ignored when immediate threat is not required or being assisted by a misdirect. Yeah it would be nice to have full spec but it has always been possible to work around this and nothing has changed.

Yeah agreed, there are some good items that would constitute an upgrade as and when / if they ever drop. I don't agree that the rings are crap though since the damage mitigation from their combined 700 armour is significant and hard to replace with raw stamina as found on most 'upgrades'. There is a danger as a bear of becoming obsessed with stamina and nerfing the mitigation. All this does is make your healers go OOM.

Enchants / gems: Yes I agree and this will be fixed soon.

I didn't look at abilities or 'oh shit' buttons because these are situation dependent and belong to all classes in equal measure such as evasion, bubble, mana shield, frenzied regen, shield wall. I'd assume that any good tank would use the ones they have when required.

Hope this answers some of the above, and I appreciate the constructive comments made. Jess and I will be looking at the guide you quoted.

Subject: Re: Naxx 06 March 09 Sat Mar 07, 2009 7:25 am

The main point that I've made and I stand by is that of the two tanks available for the run Jess was the best choice for MT and Ben was the best choice for OT. In an ideal world I would rather have Paul in as MT and either of the others as OT but since that was not possible I believe that Chris and I made the right choice.

Hybrid druids may never have the full range of tanking abilities as their full-spec counterparts but they are still better than DKs at taking damage.

Ultimately it's all trivial because 1) Dual spec is mere weeks away, and 2) The best tanks are warriors and nobody else can do all that they can irrespective of gear or talents.

Posts : 10 Join date : 2009-01-15

Can i just point out, your figures are wrong. i have an ability called frost presence, which you havent taken into account. Frost presence increases health by 10% armour contribution from items by 80% and reduces spell damage taken by 15%. thus new stats are as follows:

26 000 health
19.08% dodge
16.22% parry
3% to be missed from talents
5.76% chance to be missed from defence
80% armor

i'd also like to include a sigil i have, which increases defense by 53, making chance to be hit from defence jump from 5.76% to 6.20%.

So, you do the maths.

thanks.

Ben.

Posts : 10 Join date : 2009-01-15

Forgot to mention the following:

Icebound fortitude, when activated, reduces damage taken by 20%, plus damage reduction based on defence. 1 minute cool down, 12second duration.

Unbeakable armor increases armor by 25%, total strength by 10%, and parry chance by 5%. 20 second duration.

Subject: Re: Naxx 06 March 09 Sat Mar 07, 2009 7:11 pm

Yes I forgot to factor in the presence thingy. That makes some difference but you are making up your figures from that point onwards.

At the time I snapshotted you you had 20k health, so 10% on top is 22k not 26k.
Armor contribution by 80% doesn't mean you have 80% damage mitigation, in fact armor is capped at 75%.
Your relic is a proc not a stable increase in defense.
I already said that I hadn't included 'oh shit' or commanded abilities because everyone has them in equal measure and their results are play-style dependent, the comparisson was on base damage mitigation.

So all-in you probably have a comparable damage reduction to Jess, aplogies for excluding the presence initially.

What I find quite amusing is how hard you have fought to defend what you believe about your character and certify the value of the choices that you have made, yet this whole situation occured because you and others attacked that very same thing about Jess's character. You left the guild over it, and yet Jess and I caused anger and unrest by simply leaving a raid. I hope you see the similarity and understand how blatently unfair it is for others who know nothing of your hard work and choices to cast summary judgement.

I would not change my mind on the decision of who was to offtank and who was to main tank in that exact situation again because if you had been on teamspeak you would have realised that healer range was the issue and not the ability of the tank. Inciting a riot and victimising another player because you don't like the raid leader's and guild leader's decision is inexcuseable and if that is how you react when your DK doesn't get special treatment then I must say I will not miss its presence (no pun intended).

Posts : 10 Join date : 2009-01-15

Im not an argumentive person. I find you very intimidating. wish i never came back to this guild to be treated like crap. Not change the mt? you clearly have no clue mr 'dk hater'.

Three times the healers were the issue? even if that was thae case, wouldnt of kept her alive simple as.

far as im concerned, with the attitude displayed here, you can go duck yourself. had enough of you thinking your right all the time, when infact your WRONG.

Get it into your head.

Subject: Re: Naxx 06 March 09 Sun Mar 08, 2009 1:09 am

I'm sorry that you find me intimidating and yes I do have a tendency to believe I'm right most of the time. Goes with the territory I'm afraid. Everything has shades of grey and whether in real life or in game it is often necessary for one person to look at the grey and define which is black and which is white. That is my job as a professional engineer during the day and as guild leader during my down-time.

I would also add that since Jess and I returned to the game after our absense I have never asked anyone to join the guild. When people did then that was their choice. I'd be just as content to plod along levelling my characters in my own time but since a lot of people wanted me to run the guild that is what I try to do with the help of some damn good officers. I don't owe it to anyone to keep people sweet or play politics or diplomacy.

I don't mean to make anyone uncomfortable but I have to remain impartial and make the calls when necessary. If people want to throw their teddies out of the cot over those calls then so be it; I already have three kids of my own to look after so I'm buggered if I will pander to similar tantrums during my leisure time. I will bear in mind what you say, though, and thank you for the feedback.

Good luck for the future Ben. I'm now going to go duck myself as you have suggested.

Posts : 9 Join date : 2009-01-25

We'll I hope this disscussion is over, were a guild of learning and we cant learn until we make mistakes, once a mistake has happened, then we have learn't. Thanks for defending me Tim, as we all know personal attacks like this shouldn't, the guild has never been like that. So nice to see who your ingame friends really are.
Yes i know my gear isnt good, but you can probably understand i don't have all the time in the world to play like some of you, i'm having to rely on gear that can be bought or rep farmed.
Everyone just take this as a learning curve that it is and enjoy the game coz when the enjoyment goes why play Smile

Posts : 12 Join date : 2009-01-13 Age : 46

Drama over constructive critisism again is it? Should be a daily everyday occurance in a guilod that raids. Comments should be flying back and forth all the time about being adequate or suitable for certain roles without any drama at all.

Subject: Re: Naxx 06 March 09 Sun Mar 08, 2009 7:27 am

I argree with doone this has got way, way out of hand. From what I've read here there seems no basis for the amount of petty fighting that seems to have kicked off. You mention kids tim? show the patience of a parent. Ben where did that outburst and swearing on a forum come from? I dont care who is right because as far as I'm concerned you are both wrong for causeing this amount of petty squabbiling.

Subject: Re: Naxx 06 March 09 Sun Mar 08, 2009 7:57 am

Yes this has gone way out of hand. Constructive criticism and healthy debate are positive attributes that I like to encourage and participate in but I will not tolerate open bullying and scapegoating of one guild member by another or a group of others.

If we wipe three times then accept it. We raid: multiple wipes are inevitable. Placing the blame on one person even though they have done nothing wrong because you're feeling bitter about the decisions of the raid leader and the guild leader is entirely different and is bound to cause upset and arguements.

This particular situation was messy and I'm sorry it happened. I sincerely hope that in the future people will attempt to learn the real situation and help to form a solution before jumping in with the false accusations verging on insults when things go wrong.

Posts : 10 Join date : 2009-01-15

You not letting other ppl try and help the guild progress is selfish. Especially those more 'equipped' for the job.

Anyway. I know alot of ppl in the guild know where im coming from, and i hope those individuals come to a decision where they want to be.

Enjoyed kicking me did you? whos throwing thier teddies now eh?

Good luck to those of you who i know and trust. ciao.

Posts : 7 Join date : 2009-02-12 Age : 38

lock this topic already, just goin round in circles

Subject: Re: Naxx 06 March 09 Sun Mar 08, 2009 8:49 am

cant sorry, i dont have the rights, and no ben i didn not enjoy it but since you have lost all ability to deal with this like a responsible adult I don't have much choice.

Posts : 10 Join date : 2009-01-15

There he goes again. drop it.

Posts : 22 Join date : 2009-02-03

i was going to lock this thread and delete some of the abuse but i have chosen to leave it as it is, ffs were all adults, its a game, and tbh your all wrong as toot is the better tank Smile

but seriously what has happened has happened, we all need to just regroup and carry on, i wish you all the luck were ever you go ben, and tim we all know its a hard roll being GM. but were a raid/leveling/"fun" guild, lets leave it at that.

toot

Posts : 13 Join date : 2009-01-28 Age : 47

It´s most unfortunate to read another thread about a subject we´ve seen so many times before. There´s obviously more to this then is said here, and i think until everyone takes a moment to reflect over what they want out of a guild, their fellow players, their own role and character, the game as such, this is not going to change. We all react as the people we are, and as in real life we will see things differently.
The abuse and arguments seen in this thread isnt very nice, but its human, and as such we a compelled to behaiv. What worries me is that many of you want to leave this and move on. By doing so it will most likely occur very soon again. Maybe we shouldnt try so hard acting as adults, but more like children for once. That would be a good start. Jess wrote that we are leraning when mistakes are made, but what have we learnt? -Another way of avoiding such issues or to actually handle them as they arise...?-It can not be discarded, left in the learning pile until we´ve actually understood how the issue has been percieved.
Its not easy to run a guild, even though its suppose to be a game, and its not always easy for those who´s never found themselves in such positions to recognise the work put in. But understanding eachother has been maybe the hardest part yet.

I suggest keeping this thread open. State your mind here and now, there will be no better time for it...

Cheers

Posts : 7 Join date : 2009-01-28 Age : 58

Why is it so difficult to play and have fun!?

sry that i didt make to do the run with u, so i can not say anything what happends or not, just sad this all happend!

Im not going in for numbers bc that i cant find out!
But when we come to a end in game with some boss or something else why not to try to make it at another way suggest to switch tank, just for a couple of try.
Maybe u dont have make it if dont have done a good try and maybe that group is not ready for that run... So what we tryed and have fun! Thats is the most imported (for me at lest)!
If i have specc as a discp priest and want to be a main healer and not have all my healing gear and ppl tell me that u not good enoff specc or gear for this run i can not take that as a bad thing.
Maybe its better for me to go as a random healer and get some better gear and think over my specc... Np for that...

But still we do same mistake... We dont have open disscussion and talk to eachother as adults at all.
We can not be angry if we get argument against eachother and go for our defend side.
Its here we dont have gone further... Still we have not learn us to communicate with our members!

Sry im tired right now about all lot off things who happends now...
My good friends in real life and in game left bc its not good atmosphere and that i feeling right now to.
Im a fun run player, when its fun i can giv it all!
But right now its no fun when my good friends leave and there for its no fun to play and i feel that i have nothing to provide.

There for i gonna leave the guild.
I hope u all solve it out and get back to harmoni as it should be!
Hope u dont get hard feelings for my decision, thought and feelings m8's!
CU all out there!

Hugs my lovers!

Pleasuregirl / Jalla

Posts : 22 Join date : 2009-02-03

lol its so ironic that the person with the least literacture skills for english has made the most sense. will be sad without you jalla, paul and also soft Sad

Posts : 12 Join date : 2009-01-13 Age : 46

Pleasure sums it up nicely. Why are people taking build coments personally? Its why i left and its happened again and more have left Sad

Learn from it, take comments about your build on the chin, dont throw a hissy fit and throw your rattle out the pram.

When i made comments about Jesses tanking i didnt have any pre concieved ideas about how shit hybrid build is for raiding and based my oppinions on the fact that her health bar looked like a bloddy strobe.

Take build/gear style comments on the chin, they are not personel and shouldent hurt. If you wanted to upset someone you would comment on the fact that they have no skills by for example not realsing they had a move to grab agro that didnt have a 3 minute cooldown Very Happy

Subject: Re: Naxx 06 March 09 Mon Mar 09, 2009 2:22 pm

Its a real shame its got this far before people have lost their hot heads but the damage has been done. Its only been a few months raiding and the guild is already falling apart at the seams because people would rather shout off at each other instead of chatting like adults. Its is after all only a game and if people shout and shout no matter how right they may be, it gets to a point where they become wrong for causing squabbles. I don't know maybe its because I'm not raiding yet or something but this just seems to be one of the most pointless fights I have ever seen, and looks like offense has been taken about something so minute and exploded into this. Its a real shame. But hey sometime, hopefully sooner rather than later, lessons may be learnt and people might start behaving like human beings instead of trying to bitch slap each other......................

Subject: Re: Naxx 06 March 09 Tue Mar 10, 2009 5:31 am

I'm done to death with this post and can't make any more comments on the original topic without repeating myself, but I will make one or two final comments before moving onwards towards hopefully better times:

My effort to dicuss things (ie. this thread) has been somewhat overshadowed by personal feelings and interjection, not to mention speculation and assumption as to what the problem really was by those far away from the firing line.

Jess has redoubled her efforts based on the comments made both in-game and here, so that hopefuly there will never be a repeat occurence of this situation. That is a proactive and admirable move on her part given that in her situation I would probably have taken the easy option and just said 'Duck you all' and left rather than take that level of victimisation on the chin. I assert again that she did nothing wrong and this situation was in no way down to her but other people's (including my) reaction to the events of that particular raid.

I hope to never see another guild member being bullied in game. Contructive comments and suggestions should be more than welcome by anyone but there are ways of making your opinions heard without laying into people.

I am sorry that Ben has left this situation so bitter that he seems determined to skype everyone and try to tear the guild apart, but be assured that more capable people have tried and failed. Our foundation is the community and although a few cast stones may chip the walls the structure is still strong enough to make repairs.

The guild is not falling apart and it is not right to start that kind of rumour Jamie, when (for reasons that I truly understand so I'm not having a dig) you haven't been online and your information is based on the forum alone. It is a setback and I am truly sorry that this issue has caused discomfort to those on the perimeter, but we will move forward having learned what we have learned not only about others but about ourselves as well.

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